Episode 56: I Think They Can! From Deficit Thinking to a Strengths-Based Approach

Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works and how to make it happen. This podcast is brought to you by All in For Inclusive Education. Today I welcome my guest Julie Lang, who is an inclusion facilitator for All In, with over 29 years of experience of teaching and coaching in the New Jersey public school system.

Today, Julie and I discuss her recent presentation called “I Think They Can!” And how educators can shift from a deficit thinking to a strengths-based approach to benefit all students in the classroom.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to this new episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by All In for Inclusive Education. Today I am joined by my guest, Julie, who is an inclusion facilitator with all in.

So Julie, thank you for joining me today and really excited that you're here as a guest today.

Julie: Yes, thank you for having me.

Arthur: Yes, you're welcome. So can we start the conversation with you, sharing a little bit about yourself, your responsibilities, and what you enjoy most as an inclusion facilitator, and also share some fun things that you like to do.

Julie: Yes. So I've been with all in since 2020, and prior to that, I taught in a public school in New Jersey for 22 years and I was a general educator and we didn't have self-contained classrooms in my school. So I had students from very mild to very complex disabilities in my classroom. I was a general education teacher, so I didn't know anything different until I left the classroom to go work in the nonprofit field.

I was a literacy coach, and in the districts where I worked, they had more segregated settings for students with disabilities. So, I was shocked that not every school was like the one where I taught. And I had met somebody from all in. At the time. It was New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. And I fell in love with the mission.

And that brought me here. So for the last, almost five years, I have been working on our grant project, helping with systemic change and short term technical assistance to provide training and coaching and consulting with schools, aroundbest practices and inclusive education. I love it. My initial degree is in early childhood education and my master's degree is in reading education, K-12.

Julie:  I am currently a doctoral candidate studying inclusive, not inclusive, I’m sorry, instructional leadership, coaching and mentoring. So I am currently working on my dissertation, so I am studying instructional coaching programs in the state of New Jersey.

So my passion really is coaching and working with teachers and in my spare time, which I don't have a lot of right now since I am writing my dissertation, but when I do have time, I enjoy spending time with my family, going on various outings with with my family.

I enjoy reading for pleasure. When I can read a book and not a research article, I find that enjoyable. I like to work out. I like yoga, I like swimming, I like weight training. And I'm getting into more into cooking these days. So.

Arthur: Awesome. That's great. Congratulations on being in the doctoral program. That is tough work.

I am sure on top of keeping, you know, a life outside of work school. So, That’s great.

Julie: Thank you. Thank you.

Arthur: Yes. So the next question I have is how do you define inclusive education?

Julie: I define inclusive education as students with and without disabilities, learning, socializing, growing together. They are all equal contributors to their their classroom community, their school community.

Together and belongingness is what comes what comes to mind. You know, it's not just enough to educate students in the same classroom, but they have to all feel a sense of belonging and they all have to be equal contributors in the classroom.

Arthur: Yeah, that's I love the belonging piece. You can have all the other things there, but if there's not the sense of belonging, I think that's a very key piece to inclusive education that everybody's in the same room, but there's a sense of belonging there and that everybody is there together.

Arthur: So this conversation is shifting just a little bit. So we were recording this in February right now, which is hard to believe the or thankfully, I should say January is over, it seemed to go on forever.

Julie: I’m with you on that one.

Arthur: Yes. But All In hosted, their winter conference in January. And during that conference, you facilitated a presentation called I Think they Can from Deficit-Thinking to a Strengths-Based Approach.

So can you give us a brief overview of what your presentation was about, and explain the difference between a strengths-based approach and a deficit-based approach to education?

Julie: Yes. So this this idea of mindset is really, really important to me as as a coach, a big part of my work is helping teachers to recognize their mindset and to make, positive changes in their mindset.

Through my through my work, my doctoral work with coaching, I I've studied all different coaching approaches in education. There's cognitive coaching there, student centered coaching, there's transformational coaching. And they all have their time and place. And this falls into the bucket of transformational coaching where we need to coach educators  around their mindset, their emotions.

And inclusive education really begins with a mindset shift. And schools have been constructed around the medical model of of disability where the medical model is where I break my arm, I go to the doctor, I get a diagnosis, I get a prescription, medication, physical therapy, and we fix what's broken.

We have formed our schools around that medical model where a student is  showing a gap in skills. We, we test them, we give them a diagnosis, and then we give them a plan to what we say, fix or catch them up. Where now we've shifted with inclusion toward toward the social model.

Julie: And the social model of disability is that there's nothing wrong with the person. There is something in society or the environment that is limiting those individuals. So we need to take a look at, you know, in schools, the classroom environment, the school invite the physical environment. We need to look at the aspect of environment, right? How are we fostering a sense of belonging?

And we also have to look at our curriculum and what barriers are in the curriculum that are limiting opportunities for all of our students to be able to access the curriculum.

So this deficit thinking is when we focus on what students cannot or may not be able to do, rather than taking a strengths based approach and looking at what a student can do and I have been doing various forms of this topic for probably about two years now because I hear so much in the field and it's implicit.

It's really implicit. We don't even realize how much we say it. They can't. The students can't. They can't. And then that that thinking snowballs and leads into that thinking of they don't belong here. And that really  triggers me as an inclusion facilitator. Everybody does belong. And I get really tired of of of hearing that.

And so I thought, what we need to we need to just grab the bull by his horns,, and we need to tackle this because it's a really difficult topic to tackle because, we’re calling educators to really reflect on their thinking in their language because our actions determine I mean, our thoughts determine our actions.

Julie: So it's really important that we really reflect on our thoughts and try to reframe our thinking as I should go back our thoughts, determine our words, which determine our actions. So, yes, where this topic evolved.

Arthur: Yeah, And that's so true. How are our thoughts turn into our words and then our actions.

it’s really I think that's for me being that I have lived with a disability my whole life, and, I've been told, quite often you can't do this because of, you know, your disability. And again, with the medical model, I love how you brought that into the conversation in medical model versus a social model where it's just like, you know, I don't need to be fixed like  I am who I am and I am whole and complete how I am.

It's just society and things are inaccessible to me. As a person who uses a wheelchair a lot of times.  So if we help fix those things, those types of barriers, then maybe things would be more accessible and therefore result in more inclusion for those of us with disabilities. So it's really great.

And we often hear we often see in movies the whole medical model of the person with a disability and they need to be fixed and healed and all those types of things. And it's it's okay to have people with disabilities in the world like we're here.

Julie: Exactly. And and there's nothing wrong with you. And you have you have strengths and you are a valuable person. You're a valuable contributor to society. And it's up to society to be able to remove those barriers so that you can enjoy and participate in life to the fullest. Right.

We do a lot of of of work with universal design for learning where we look at curriculum and we say what what barriers are there?

And we work with teachers in reframing the barrier from the student to the curriculum or the environment. So instead of saying these students can't read, you would shift it to text complexity could be a barrier. So I've kind of backed up and, made me this training almost, you know, like out of that, let's have a whole training on deficit thinking and deficit language, in order to get to that point.

Arthur: Yes, Yes. It's really great. And I think having a training like this can help bring awareness to those educators of, you know, just the little thing and how you said like reframing something, how that can make such a big difference for me. Such a big difference.

Arthur:  So speaking of that, can you give one or two examples of how educators can shift from their deficit thinking to a strengths based approach?

And why is it important for educators to focus on their students strengths rather than their weaknesses?

Julie: Yes, So first, I think it's important to define deficit thinking. So when when we have deficit thinking, we are it's this belief. So Hinbeck is is has defined deficit thinking as the belief that there is a prescribed correct way of being known as the norm.

So anyone who operates outside of the norm of that is operating at a deficit. So that’s when we entirely focus on bringing people into the norm rather than changing the norm to accommodate others. So that is where deficit thinking that is like the one of the definitions of deficit thinking. So in education, it focuses entirely on what students may not be able to do, and it discourages teachers and administrators from acknowledging and recognizing the positive values and traits and dispositions of students.

It's harmful because we assume that we can't support a student and it leads to educators lowering expectations for the student. We always want to keep high expectations for all of our students, even our students with disabilities.

Julie: So one way that we can do this is always, always, always presume competence. And we need to assume that even students that have that have limited language abilities, we have to presume competence.

I saw somewhere recently I don't remember where it came from, but it said in society, we we presume the signs of intelligent to be reading and language. So somebody has difficulty reading or speaking. We tend to assume that they're not capable and that is not true. The barrier might be speaking or reading, but it doesn't mean that they're not intelligent.

So the way that I help educators to reframe deficit language is to describe the challenging like behavior or, what we would call deficit thinking in observable terms.

Julie: So, for instance, let's say an educator came to me and or I was in a in a classroom and they kept saying to me, the student is so impulsive, they have no self-control. They're always calling out during the lesson. They're disrupting the lesson.

I would say to them, let's think about the behavior. If we were to turn that behavior into a strength, what do you see in that child? Well, the child might be eager to participate in class because they're participating. They're just doing it in a way that may not be appropriate for the manageable lesson.

So you might I might say to the teacher, okay, So let's take a look at how the student responds. They might need more kinesthetic opportunities to respond. Or let's take a look at your opportunities to respond. Are you just calling on one person at a time? Can you give them all whiteboards or have some type of thumbs up, thumbs down?

Could you play, Four Corners, something like that? And then what? How could you reframe what you would say to a child like you might keep telling that child; sit down, stop calling out what's a positive thing you could say to that child. And it would be like, ‘I see you're eager to respond when a question is asked.’

So reframing from, the student has no self-control to this child is eager to respond, same child, same behaviors. But you're looking at it from a different lens.

Julie: My go-to question is when I hear things like they don't belong is ‘what is the what is the impact of holding that thought?’ And that's a question posed by Elaine Aguilar, who is the guru of transformational coaching.

So if somebody said to me, they don't belong here, I would say to the teacher, what is the impact of you holding that thought? Because if your thoughts become words, become actions, right? You think a child doesn't belong in your class, do you think they feel that they belong in your class right now? It's a tough question to ask and to be asked, but I think it's time that we address it in education.

Arthur: When you said that, I was like, wow, that that hurt!

Julie: right?

Arthur: I didn't even say that. But like, that hurt having that question, like thinking about that big ask, like, wow, what is the impact of holding that thought?

Julie: even like ‘the student is so far behind’, like, okay, what is the impact if you holding that thought?

Like, what can they do? Let's build on what they can do instead of what they can't do. You know what you think they can't do?

Arthur: That was I was an example you just used with, saying that students are so far behind because that can easily turn into, well, there's nothing else we can do now.

Julie: Exactly. It keeps you in that deficit spiral,

Arthur: So they're always they're just going to stick by it.

Julie: That’s right. Exactly. It keeps you. I was in a I was coaching in a classroom last week and the focus was positive behavior. And it was it was a really challenging classroom, lower elementary. And there was three students that were refusing to do work and they were just wandering around the classroom and and the teacher was was very frustrated.

And I took the lens. I had told her, I'm going to just observe the students. I'm going to observe what they do, where they go, and I observe them from the lens of what is making them tick right now. Where are they going? What area of the room are they gravitating towards? You know, and that told me a lot about the students.

I was able to to debrief with the teacher. We talked about each student and and what you know, what they were not doing and what kinds of activities they do they were gravitating toward. So, for instance, instead of giving these students worksheets, that child is gravitating toward blocks. How about we take some of the blocks in your classroom and maybe Post-its with words on it, and then the student can put it in order or they can build words with, cubes.

She actually had cubes with words on it. How about we take them out and build sentences with it? This student likes art. how can we incorporate that into lessons and things like that? How can we build on what students, you know, strengths are, what their interests are, and start to see them in a you know, we see them in a different light that way.

So taking that strengths based approach can make a huge difference.

Arthur: Yes. Yes. And I'd like the example that you also gave a few minutes ago about, the child that might call out. But changing that to saying, I see you're eager to respond, that just as much as I felt the hurt when you said, what does the impact of you holding that thought, when you said that the student is eager to respond, that gave me encouragement, like, oh, yeah, I am eager to respond. I can put myself in the student's place and say, like how that, would change the way that I'm I'm thinking. I’m excited to have to respond to these questions. And, that's why I'm calling out.

Julie: Yes, exactly.

Arthur: Yeah. So that it really does it really does make a difference for sure. And, you know, again, just thinking about my own life of of living with the disability and hearing from society, you know, whether it be educators or just  as I got into being an adult, being in the the workforce, just hearing the negativity, but thankfully having a strong base in my family and friends who told me, you know, like, oh, no, you can do whatever you want to do, you know your realistic limitations.

I know my realistic limitations. I'm not going to be out here climbing ladders or anything like that. That's just not, I don't want to do that or playing football, for example. I don't want to do that either. Doesn't sound fun to get knocked around like that. But, knowing that I can do whatever it is that I want to do, if I put in the work and just really, have that strong base of of people supporting me.

And that's where, you know, it's very important to have that strong base in the school systems of educators supporting their students and giving them that positive and the strengths, focusing on their strengths and not their weaknesses. That can be very impactful. And someone as they grow older.

Julie: Yes, I, I have I have a quote that I absolutely love.

I have it at the end. I had it at the end of my presentation. And it I think somebody actually took a screenshot and put it on Instagram. It's it's very powerful. It's by Robert Conklin and it says if human beings are perceived as potentials rather than problems as possessing strengths instead of weaknesses as unlimited rather than dull and unresponsive, then they thrive and grow to their capabilities.

Arthur: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. Now I have to put that on my Instagram. Thank you. That's great. Wow. Yeah,

Julie: I’ll email it to you later. Every person in this world has something to contribute.their their strengths are not cultivated, And so, taking that strength based approach, it's just i a best practice in inclusive education.

And really in education, it should be, you know, a best practice with all of our students building on strengths, building on what they can do, trying to reframe, or what we would say is a deficit into into a positive, you know, keeping high expectations for our students, presuming competence. I can't say it enough. Yes.

Arthur: This is this is a great, great conversation. I'm really thankful to have this conversation with you. And I just have one last question I am asking of all of my guests. Just because we are in my time, this episode of comes out well, we're in the high fifties of the number of episodes we've put out, so I'm trying to gather some resources that our guests enjoy.

So if you could share some of your go to resources for inclusion, it can be a movie or books, websites, YouTube videos, whatever it is that you, you know, your go to what you recommend for people to check out, as far as inclusion.

Julie: I love I love, love, love. The Shelley Moore are five more minutes videos on YouTube.

If you're an educator, those are great. She also has podcasts that are that are great. I like all of Julie Causton’s books. I've been reading some of hers for educators as well, for inclusive classrooms.

As far as movies go, I love I love the movie Intelligent Lives. Have you seen that? No, I haven't. I believe it's on Amazon Prime, Intelligent Lives.

It follows three young adults with disabilities as two of I believe. Yeah. One is at Syracuse University in the certificate program, there's a young woman who they are using person centered planning to help her find a job that that's a good fit for her. And then there's there's a young man, I think he's a senior in high school, junior or senior who has autism limited verbal capacity.

And they're trying to foster his, you know, find a good fit for him, you know, when he's done with high school and he loves art. So I love that movie. I believe it's on Amazon Prime. It came out a few years ago.

Arthur: I’ll check it out. I had a guest on a few weeks ago and they were talking about the peanut Butter Falcon movie where a young well, not young, he’s  younger than me, so he's young, he has disability and he wants to become a professional wrestler. And it was like it was such a great movie. I watched it over the weekend,

Julie: I have to add that to my queue. Peanut butter Falcon. Peanut butter falcon.

Arthur: Yeah. It was such a it was a big movie. Really fun to watch. So but thank you so much for having this conversation and just a way to provide more resources and more positive ways of thinking for our educators who are in the classrooms with students every day.

And just having that mindset shift of switching to a strengths space approach. And know what what a good a good thing, a good impact that can have on all of the students when their strengths are focused on can't be stressed enough. So yes, yes. Yeah.

Julie:  One last thing. I'm because I have my literacy passion. I also am a big advocate of teachers using books, whether it's your books at the elementary level or novels at the middle high school level, would that feature characters with disabilities in a positive light?

So I have a whole padlet of resources on that. So if anybody's interested in that, they can email me.

Arthur: Oh great. Yes, Thank you so much. That is, I love books and they have gotten so much better with including topics about disabilities in books at all age levels. You know, the earliest from the early education through middle school and high school.

And they just turned one of the books into a movie recently. I think it was out of Out of my mind.

Julie: Yes, yes

Arthur: So a lot of kids have read through their middle school or high school years. So it's yeah, it's it's really, really great to see. I'm really excited to you know, to see those changes taking place.

And even with, you know, the popularity of Wicked with them using and a woman to play NessaRose who is actually a wheelchair user and not an actor playing a wheelchair user, you know, those types of things are so important to see and to have included in our books and our movies, television shows and all of that.

Julie, thank you again for this conversation. It was really great. And it really is. You know, something that encouraged me as well to, you know, just always be mindful, and mindful of our way of thinking about ourselves and about the way we think and perceive others and just to keep those positive thoughts coming for everybody.

So thank you so much and have a great day.

Julie: You’re welcome. Thank you.